Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) on Thursday expressed confidence the U.S. can reach net-zero carbon emissions by 2050 but insisted commercial-scale carbon capture must be part of the solution to ensure a future for fossil fuels.

Speaking the day after being named chairman of the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, Manchin outlined his ground rules for climate legislation, saying change should result from incentives rather than penalties and reiterating his insistence on technological innovation rather than blacklisting coal and natural gas.

Manchin said he would oppose any policy that threatened U.S. energy independence. “We have to be self-reliant. We saw what happened back in the ’70s. I’m old enough to remember waiting in line for gasoline. So, we know what can happen when we put all our eggs in somebody else’s basket,” he said during an interview with Bipartisan Policy Center President Jason Grumet.

“I believe that you cannot move … to a cleaner environment by elimination. I believe you do it by innovation. You have to have innovation that creates the technologies — whether it’s going to be hydrogen, further advancing wind and solar … and using the fossil fuels that are going to be used around the world for some time in the cleanest fashion humanly possible.”

Those who insist on keeping fossil fuels in the ground are ignoring the increasing use of coal in places like India and China, Manchin said.

“Do they think that the United States of America is going to suck all the air and recycle it back in the world?” he scoffed. “If you want to clean up the world … you’ve got to find a way to solidify the carbon because shoving it in the ground is not feasible. … But we have good technology coming on now and we can make it feasible and we should. Yes, we can get there if we’re determined to invest.”

Policy Through Bipartisanship

Manchin also said he would oppose any effort to eliminate the filibuster to win climate legislation. “I’m not going down that path and destroy this place,” he said, referring to the Senate.

Instead, he said he will seek bipartisan solutions, citing his partnership with Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska), his predecessor as ENR chair, which won passage in December of the first major energy bill in 13 years. (See
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“The secret for what we were able to do in the last Congress … was basically this: We’re friends. We like each other. We know each other. We made sure that our staffs met with each other. We didn’t let anyone get in a silo, to where this group was working against this group.”

Manchin said building trust across the aisle means not seeing the other side as the enemy and seeking to win cheap political points. “I had Lisa’s back. Lisa had my back. And man does that help.”

With the Democrats in control of the Senate by the narrowest margin possible — a 50-50 split that can be broken by Vice President Kamala Harris — the Biden administration will likely need the support of both Manchin and Murkowski to pass any substantive legislation, particularly on climate.

Manchin said he was optimistic about building a similar relationship with Sen. John Barrasso (R-Wyo.), another coal state senator who will be the ranking Republican on his committee.

FERC, Permitting

Asked if the federal government needed to preempt the states to overcome opposition to the siting of transmission lines, Manchin said the solution is to “follow the money.”

“If the utility companies would share some of the revenue [resulting from] that project with the states and counties they go through, you’d cure that problem like that,” he said.

Manchin said he was optimistic about the new additions to FERC, offering praise for new Commissioner Allison Clements, a Democrat whose appointment was delayed for months by opposition within the Trump administration.

“Allison is just unbelievable, a very, very intelligent person who has the experience level that we need. There were people in the past administration who were a little bit concerned … because she was so accomplished. But we got over that,” Manchin said. “We’re going to get a really good working FERC.”

Willingness to Change

The former West Virginia governor, who famously appeared in a campaign ad shooting a copy of the 2010 cap-and-trade bill, said he would not be bound by his past positions.

“I’ve said, if you can’t change your mind, you can’t change anything. So, I’m not set in any mindset. People are trying to pigeonhole me or silo me and say, ‘Well that’s Joe Manchin.’ They are absolutely so wrong. You show me the facts. Show me how to do things … you’ve got a supporter,” he said.

“I have had wrong information. I’ve had an opinion about something. I have voted for something and had to change because I was wrong. There’s nothing wrong with that. We grow and we learn every day.”